From:Steve Marks e-mail:steve@themagnetoguys.co.uk
Subject:RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: New find, 1923? Henderson chassis Date:Tue Jun 30 15:47:39 2015
Response to:5829
Dave
Referring to the 1918-1923 parts list,the L shaped reverse lever is listed in the 1920/21 Model K section. It's not mentioned in the DeLuxe section of that list but, as has been mentioned before, the Deluxe section is very brief and probably only lists those parts new to the Deluxe - so fair to assume that the reverse lever is the same as the preceding Model K. Saddle support parts are listed in both sections though with different numbers so I would say there were slight variations though probably still 'bolt through the frame' type as there is no mention of U bolts. Interestingly, no mention of the new Deluxe frame either.....
Going on to the specific 'DeLuxe Model Only' and 'DeLuxe Model and Sidecars' (illustrated) parts lists there is no mention of the L shaped reverse lever in either but both list 'Clutch or Reverse Gear Hand Lever, New Style. Low Frame' as well as 'Clutch or Reverse Gear Hand Lever, High Frame, 4 gal Tank'. Both these parts list now show the U bolts for the saddle mount

I stick to my earlier list of frame versions with some updates:
1 Model K: reverse lever on stud, engine bolts thru narrow frame, saddle mount bolted through frame (OK, not a Deluxe but included here for completeness))
2 DeLuxe: reverse lever on stud, (different) saddle mount bolted through frame, engine bolts now through lugs on wider frame (Ben's frame)
3 DeLuxe: reverse lever/clutch lever: no stud, saddle mount located with U bolts - referred to as 'High frame' in parts list books
4 DeLuxe: (different) reverse lever/clutch lever: no stud, saddle mount located with U bolts referred to as 'New Style, Low frame' in parts list books
5 Deluxe: as 4 but with extra brackets on top frame tube for instrument panel. Only documentation I've seen is in sales literature - anyone seen them in any parts list?
6: KJ Frame (not really my area - any variations on KJ frames?)

I'm sorry Dave but I have to disagree when you say there are only two Deluxe frames (sorry Dave!!) even if you follow up by saying there were variations. I reckon there are at least four (that I now know of) versions of DeLuxe frames. In my book one frame is either an exact replacement for another or it's a different frame. Imagine ordering a replacement frame and finding that there's nowhere to hang your L shaped reverse lever - or there are no holes for your saddle mounting hardware - or you can't fix the instruments on the top tube....
I can say that number 1 in the above list is 1920/21 Model K but I'll leave it to others to put dates on the rest of the frame types - wouldn't want to fall out with anyone.....
Steve



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Steve,

As it was explained to me, the "high frame" in the part list book is this frame pictured by Ben, ie. the '22/'23/early '24 long tank frame.

In my understanding, there are really only 2 styles of Deluxe frames, the "high frame" and the "low frame". A slight additional variation would be the '27 and '28 frames with the bosses on the backbone for the dash mounts.

-Dave

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Thanks Dave. Just goes to show - we never stop learning! When I looked at the picture I saw the reverse lever stud and didn't look closely at the engine mount area. First time I've seen a frame with a combination of reverse lever on the stud and engine mounted inboard of wider spread tubes! So looks like I need to amend my list of frame versions.
1 Model K: reverse lever on stud + engine bolts thru narrow frame (more in posting 5820)
2 DeLuxe: reverse lever on stud + engine bolts through lugs on wider frame (the frame in question - new to me!)
3 DeLuxe: reverse lever/clutch lever: no stud - referred to as 'High frame' in parts list book
4 DeLuxe: reverse lever/clutch lever: no stud - referred to as 'New Style, Low frame' in parts list book

For anyone interested, parts list book in question is headed DeLuxe Model and Sidecars see posting 1484 for more on dating parts list books.
All great stuff!! Steve

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Steve,

Looks like a 22/23/early 24 Deluxe frame to me. I have one. The engine mounts are inside the frame cradle, eg. not Model K.

The four digit number on the frame is likely the casting number for the big casting under the seat.

-Dave

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Hi Ben
No, I don't think this is a 23 - more likely to be a 20/21 Model K or 22 Deluxe for the reasons given in response to Dan's query from a few weeks ago (though I'm only just getting round to compiling them so give me half an hour from this post before looking for that one...) I don't think your frame number means much - or it wouldn't if it was here in the UK. As far as I am aware, the factory never used frame numbers around this time. Over here in the UK we need a frame number for vehicle registration so they are stamped into place as and when required - after due inspection and completing the necessary paperwork of course. The number is often the same as the engine number - no doubt giving rise in future years to the suggestion that it is a 'matching numbers' bike....... The number stamped could just as easily be the date of stamping or the owner's birthdate. I've registered bikes over the years with all sorts of 'made up' frame numbers! I guess that as long as the number is unique, it doesn't matter much. Things have been tightened up a little in recent years - last year our licensing authority gave me a very long number (about 20 chars and numbers if I remember correctly) which had to be stamped into a Velocette frame. Hope you have an engine for your frame - you would be well on the way to having a great bike then! Steve
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Hi,
I picked this Henderson chassis up the other weekend. New to Henderson but have a number of Big X's from 1915 to 1923 so some of the Henderson chassis parts are familiar. The wheels in it are Excelsior Series 20 that I had already. My question is, is this a 1923 Deluxe Chassis? There is a four digit frame number on the down tube of the head stem, and below that is a single digit 3. In Excelsiors this single digit designates the year of the frame. Is it the same for Henderson? What year did the half pan seat that is on this bike come in? There will be many more questions to come no doubt! Looking for all the missing parts.
Cheers Ben
Melbourne, Australia