From:Steve Ciccalone e-mail:hensteveamc@aol.com
Subject:RE: RE: RE: RE: RE:RE:RE Seat Springs Date:Wed May 10 08:54:29 2006
Response to:1214
Hi Steve,

I can't prove it in the literature but I suspect the square or more correctly the flat wound spring was more susceptible to breaking and was replaced by the round wire that would take the stresses better. Some years ago one of these flat springs broke when I was riding a bike. Consequently, I think they were quickly replaced and superceded by the round spring, thus contributing to their relative rarity. I'll try and take a picture of one and post it. As an aside, my 1917 rider's manual points out that the standard seat spring was rated to support a rider up to 165lbs (slightly less than 12 stone in the UK), and if the rider was over that, heavier springs should be obtained from the dealer. The heavier spring does not appear in the parts book. Have not seen any reference to heavier springs offered for later models.

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I've seen square section front fork springs but never seen it used on seat springs so we learn something new everyday. Other than that, a few things to add on this topic:
1 I've heard of several instances where seat springs have broken. Also, in Golden Age of the Fours, page 13, under 'Facts about Bennett's Henderson which broke the (transcontinental) record' it states 'Spare set of fork and saddle springs taped to frame'. I don't know if he needed to use them but even so, this implies to me that springs were a known (potential) weak point very early on - the run was in 1922. Are there likely to be any 'originals' left?
2 The number of turns changed. I am not going to quote numbers because I'm not sure of them but looking at the photos of the day, The 1920/21 model K had a spring about half the length of the Deluxes. KJs then returned to a shorter spring again.
3 Perry's reasoning behind the 'Laurel' and 'Hardy' descriptions eluded me until I looked in the KJ parts list (nice one Perry!). The deflection of the spring (and therefore the load it can take) is controlled, amongst other things, by the diameter and number of the coils and the gauge or diameter of the wire itself. I wonder how the factory achieved the 'Laurel' and 'Hardy' versions? They could have changed any one or more of these factors.
As always, one question leads to another - in this case, what's 'correct'? If you are that concerned about getting it 'right' it seems to me that there are many questions about the physical dimensions of the spring as well as the direction of rotation!!

Finally, if you do need one-off, made to measure springs, I can recommend Paul Savage here in the UK - telephone 01527 521666. He has done quite a few one-off springs for me (including fork and seat springs for my Model K) and I have been 100% satisfiied with both the goods and the service - really helpful guy. Works from a pattern or drawing and can also supply in stainless steel but I suggest going up a gauge or two if you want to follow that route.

Just adding to the debate - Steve

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Marty, what kind of springs do you think I was looking at? Both KJ sets I looked at came from John Scharle. No one has ever reproduced the flat (or square stock springs) as far as I know due to cost and material availability. The set of round stock springs on the KJ have been on the bike since at least 1948 based on the photos I have of it. Frankly, I wonder why Tom is making them. Steve Shackman and Bill Klein have made and sold these springs for a long time, unless the stock is now depleted and they won't be making anymore. I also checked my parts books and concur with Perry's comments. My 1926 Deluxe is a virtually untouched original whose owner died in 1928. It was stored until the early 1980's when the second owner found it. It has the left and right seat springs. As I mentioned earlier, Toney probably remembered the Deluxes when he talked to you. Both of us have owned many more D's than we have KJ's. That's why I looked when I got home.

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The deal with the seat springs is getting better all the time! What started this is both Steve and Toney while at Oley said they used opposite windings. Told this to Tom, and obviously he was torqued, since he tries to research everything to perfection prior to making anything. Now Steve ,per his message, is having second thoughts, and I passed that on to Tom. By the way, he [Tom] never knew about this site until last night! Just e mailed him the web address, so don't be surprised to see him chime in from now on. I'll also mention what I did to Tom, and that is anything E-X ever published can't be believed as gospel, considering the obvious misprints/lack of prints they did. There are many things not in the parts book, like the different headlights and 31 style parts, as well as a few other things. The fact that they describe the genny as DU-5, when the DU 5 turns the wrong way suggests they just made a mistake and took it from the Deluxe book, the owner's manual shows a three bolt carb, when KJ's were all two bolt, gives credance the the possiblity the spring part number could even be for a matched pair [it is theoretically possible under the circumstanses]. I mentioned to Tom this morning we need a few bonified unmolested originals to check seat springs to know for sure as possible[if it's possible!]]

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2 linkert carbs - 7/8" venturie. (M-16 early 4 line inscription, fresh rebuild-throttle shaft bushings,choke shaft bushed also! brass float, viton needle and seat, body painted black and all the rest cad plated-$400.00) M-7 "stamped Indian" fresh rebuid identical to the M-16 listed above EXCEPT- this carb is ready to be plated as it would have been in its day! Carb comes with Linkert air horn also-$400.00 Both carb are in excellent condition, you wont be disappointed!
1.KJ-5686 Brake cross shaft. Made from 1045 alloy and has 2 stainless taper pins - $40.00.

In reference to the seat spring saga-As Paul Harvey would say "And now for the REST of the story". The seat spring which Tom Fickau is using as a pattern came from me! This spring was taken from an original rusty seat bridge and BOTH spring were wound the same direction! Also before sending I looked at my Toney Watson springs on the other KJ which were purchased quite a few years ago and they also were wound in one direction! And you are all right - Tom was lived Friday at Oley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!